Tayana Owners Group Forum Index Tayana Owners Group
We have moved discussion to Google Groups -- TOGnews Forum was closed 11/1/07
 
    FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups
 Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Looking for a new anchor
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Tayana Owners Group Forum Index -> Tayana Talk - We Have Moved to Google Groups -- CLOSED 11/1/07
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
FTimmons



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 103
Location: Deltaville, VA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 5:41 am    Post subject: Looking for a new anchor Reply with quote

I'm in the market for a new anchor to replace the Bruce 44, which will get moved to backup use. I'm looking for something more suited to sandy and grassy bottoms than the bruce, which has worked fine in the Chesapeake mud.

Is anybody using (or have any semi-anecdotal stories from somebody who is) one of the "new" anchors, specifically spade or rocna? What boat and what size?

I know Rich has a spade that he likes except in soft mud. I'm a little more partial to the rocna. It looks a little more sturdy and since I don't have a bowsprit, the roll bar isn't a problem.

I put this here to avoid the usual flame war between that french spade guy and the rockna guy that always erupts on every bulletin board. So if either of you are lurking, don't bother responding, please.
_________________
Frank Timmons
V42 Magic Dragon
Deltaville, VA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Mike W.



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the holding power of our CQR, up here in the Puget Sound the bottom is silt covered clay so when the anchor gets a bite, it isn't letting go till you tilt it up,
We too, have a Bruce, it's getting moved to the stern, the Danforth is going by-by, and we're going to move the CQR to the secondary bow anchor and replace it with a Delta.
You only need so much holding power before you start ripping things loose from the deck.
Have you walked the dock to see what other sailors are using in your area, talk to them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
FTimmons



Joined: 17 Nov 2005
Posts: 103
Location: Deltaville, VA

PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I were staying in the Chesapeake I would probably just keep the Bruce. It's never drug and only failed to set once (in oyster shells covered by heavy grass).

We're leaving for the Carib in 2008, and I just agreed to sell the backup undersized CQR to a friend, so I think I'll go ahead and buy the new anchor now, rather than wait.
_________________
Frank Timmons
V42 Magic Dragon
Deltaville, VA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Woody



Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 4
Location: WA/BC

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

After having some difficulties setting and holding with both a 35 lb CQR and 33 lb Bruce (with our usual 5-7:1 ratio, 3/8 HT chain) in New Zealand we were talking to British couple in a steel boat that had similar problems all over the world. They had switched to a Spade (aluminum, 100 size - I think the same dimensions as the 20Kg steel one), anyway, after two years of Med and onward voyaging they had not dragged once. They said it changed their lifestyle and safety. So, we bought a Spade near Auckland (wow, put a big dent in the Kitty!) and after 25,000 nm's (From NZ to Hawaii, Alaska, BC, etc. we have never drug once. We have had a few problems setting, the worst was in Apaia, Samoa in the softest putrid mud, but when we hit that soft a bottom we use lots of patience of the Bruce with OK results (we would use a Fortress at those times if we had one.) Anyway, we love our Spade but I have to admit that I am thinking of springing for a heavier Rocna (50-60 lb) as an alternative. By the way, we also tried a 75 lb German Bulge anchor and loved it, but it broke my fingers and really didn't fit the bow fitttings. in fact, I designed and had cast a bronze bow roller (in NZ) for the bugle but then we sold that and got the Spade and as I say, we love it. So, we need another anchor and I am tempted to either get a bigger Spade or the Rochna but will probably get the Rochna as i think variety is a good idea. Oh yes, if we go back to areas with soft bottoms then we'd add a Fortress.
Good luck and I recommend going a little heavy and using HT chain to save wt forward. Woody
_________________
1981 Tayana-37 "Hannah"
Bellingham, WA and Hornby Island, BC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
hjkarten
Site Admin


Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 642
Location: Del Mar, California, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HI Woody,
Many thanks for the informative posting about the Spade anchor. I just bought one (I think it is called the S-100 - about 20 Kgs/45 Pounds) at a swap meet, based on Rich's recommendation. Your experience further consolidates the reputation of the Spade. We have had our 45 Pound CQR for a few years, but anchoring in Southern California isn't really that much of a challenge, with light winds, minimal tidal change. We hope to use the Spade when we get back up to the Pacific Northwest. when anchoring in tidal channels even in areas such as around Friday Harbor, we found that the CQR needed more scope than we had available. We only had 200 feet of chain, and couldn't reliably anchor in 60 feet of water. With the tide promising about 15-20 additional feet, I couldn't hope to approach a 3:1. In other situations, as in Sansum Narrows, or Portland Island, we found the CQR was OK, if we could manage to set a scope of about 5:1 or better. Our present solution is to shift to the Spade, and we installed 315 feet of 5/16" HT, backed with another 200 feet of 5/8" nylon.

I considered the Rocna, but based on my communication with the manufacturer, I didn't think I could get it to sit properly on our bowsprit. It is also quite expensive.
regards,
Harvey
_________________
Harvey J. Karten
Tayana 37
Hull #84
Del Mar, CA 92014
EMail: hjkarten@ucsd.edu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Steve Abel



Joined: 16 Dec 2005
Posts: 37
Location: Mount Vernon, WA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 27, 2007 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We recently purchased the 66# spade for our T-37. The Spade and a 44# Delta are replacing a CQR and Bruce. It "just" fits on our bow roller, and with limited experience, it seems to set quickly and hold fine. We had to deploy it quickly in an emergency a couple of weeks ago when a line got wrapped in the prop/shaft, and we needed to keep off a rocky shore. At that point, I was glad to have an oversized anchor.

For soft mud, we also carry a Fortress FX-37, which is somewhat lightweight and very easy to stow.

Steve
_________________
Steve Abel
SV Victoria Rose
Tayana 37 #384
Sailing out of Anacortes, WA
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Woody



Joined: 18 Mar 2007
Posts: 4
Location: WA/BC

PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Like most who anchor most of the time we spend a lot or effort trying to build the best system we can. Over the past 5 years we have been refining our anchoring gear and technique/teamwork.
Although we really like our 44 lb Spade (have not dragged in over 500 nights, we have also not always set as fast as we would have liked either!) we have decided to move up to the 66 Lb Spade or Rochna. Why, because I removed about a 150 lbs from the anchor lockers and therefore can afford the extra wt. Up until this year we carried 300' HT 5/16 [with 200 nylon rode] on Port and 200' 5/16 HT and 300' nylon rode] on Starboard. Sounds like alot, and was. We seemed to sail fine but to reduce the weight a bit I cut 50' chain from Port and 100' chain from Starboard. Net savings over 100lbs (see Calder if you want to exact amt - I've forgotten!) I also switched to 8 braid nylon (Yale) - when wet it stacks like chain (no need to coil below - love it.) Anyway, our cruising log says we have rarely deployed more than 200 chain and I figure the 250 plus all that nylon ought to be more than enough. This Summer I'll add the 66 lb Spade or Rochna to the manual Seatiger 555 on Port and sleep even better. The little used 33# Bruce on Star (on electric windlass) will be replaced with the 44# Spade.
By the way, Hannah's water tanks were moved aft of midships years ago so that's part of the reason we could carry so much chain. And lastly, the bronze anchor roller we cast in NZ is mounted on deck (not bowsprit) so anchor wt is further aft as well.
I suppose I'll always be tweaking our anchor system but it's the best insurance policy we can afford anyway.
_________________
1981 Tayana-37 "Hannah"
Bellingham, WA and Hornby Island, BC
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Hal Haltom



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 5
Location: Houston, Texas

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:09 pm    Post subject: Rocna Anchor Reply with quote

Woody, here is some more anecdotal information on anchor performance. I have been using a Rocna 40 (about 82 pounds) on my Tayana 52 in the Western Caribbean for the last 6 months and have been very pleased with its performance. It usually sets very quickly, and once set it can be difficult to retrieve. We have never moved with the anchor set. To retrieve it, I usually motor up over the anchor (using the windlass to retrieve the chain) until the scope is one-to-one. We then use the engine (110 hp Yanmar) to break it out. When it comes up, it always has a large portion of the bottom still attached to it. We then usually end up motoring slowly dragging the anchor just below the surface to shake everything loose before stowing it. Before the Rocna, I had a 75 pound CQR that never appeared to be set to me when I dove on it while using it in the Eastern Caribbean. It seemed to always slowly plow along the bottom. The Rocna is not as elegant on the bow roller as the CQR, but it certainly holds well.

1993 Tayana 52, Cayuse
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hjkarten
Site Admin


Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 642
Location: Del Mar, California, USA

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Hal and Woody,
I have the impression that the major difference between the Spade and the Rocna is that the Rocna has an anti-roll hoop on it's top. (Please no flaming by the Rocna manufacturer! I know that you are a member of this bulletin board, but the arguments between you and the manufacturer of the Spade have filled many other bulletin boards with acrimony). As a result of this hoop, it is more difficult to fit the Rocna on the bowsprit of a T37. It has been done, but remains difficult. The Spade fits easily.

Hal's report is the first direct report by an owner of the performance of the Rocna. I understand that the Rocna is fairly pricey. But so is the Spade.

Your comparison of the Rocna to the CQR is very informative. What size CQR were you using?
regards,
Harvey
_________________
Harvey J. Karten
Tayana 37
Hull #84
Del Mar, CA 92014
EMail: hjkarten@ucsd.edu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mike W.



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 6:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What, or maybe I should ask, how do you test your anchor set once it's in the bottom?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hjkarten
Site Admin


Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 642
Location: Del Mar, California, USA

PostPosted: Fri Jul 20, 2007 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Mike,
I always prefer multiple choice exams. Much easier to grade. Maybe that would work with anchors as well.
(Well, truth to tell, I usually tell students in my graduate seminars that I don't give exams. But that won't work with anchors.)

I let is settle to the bottom, then drift back as I let out more chain/rode. I greatly prefer at least 5:1, but even in Friday Harbor, that can be difficult where the depth is more than 60 feet even close to shore. After about 10-15 minutes, I put a bit of slow tension on the chain by going in reverse. Let it relax. A bit like sipping a wine. Take anchor bearings with a hand bearing compass. If I feel like getting fancy, I'll take radar bearings. Then a bit more reverse. Check original compass bearings. Patience is a virtue. If I think that we may be dragging, I'll lift and start the whole process all over again. I would rather sit on the foredeck when first anchoring, rather than waking at 3 AM with a cold wind on my bare skin.
regards,
Harvey
_________________
Harvey J. Karten
Tayana 37
Hull #84
Del Mar, CA 92014
EMail: hjkarten@ucsd.edu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mike W.



Joined: 09 Jul 2006
Posts: 161

PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason I ask,
Last weekend we spent at a Nigal Calder seminar,
One of the many topics was anchors & anchor set.
In the past I would drop the hook a bit high of where I wanted it to set, then back down away from it at about 1/3 throttle, let out rode till I was about 3 or 4 to 1, then stop the rode and let the boat's momenum set the hook.
Once the boat has been stopped by the hook I adjust rode length for tide and swing, in other words I'll make sure I didn't get carried away on the let out.
This works great for most of the sound, I've almost slept through 35kt blows and not been too worried, being an insomniac I'll check my position from time to time, a few times I've gotten well lit, (with wine for fuel), and slept the night through.
I don't think I've ever had my anchor drag, my point to this bit of story will be clear in a moment.
Nigal's technique is to drop and set just about the exact same way, except, instead of letting it rest after stopping the boat from 1/3 throttle in reverse, he then brings on full throttle in reverse to make sure it dosn't drag, this is his recommended technique.
His preferred anchor is a Delta, with a CQR or a Bruce as a second, or back up hook.
If you can't get the hook to set, try tandom with the Bruce about 10ft in front of your primary hook.
If that fails then two anchor rodes and hooks at 45degrees from each other.
And if that fails keep tossin' hooks and rodes till the boat stops!
That is almost word for word from him, it was funny as heck when he was telling us about his technique, he continued to state that at one time he had FOUR anchors and rodes out and he was still dragging, till he tossed his last anchor out, a Fisherman, and that's the one that stopped him.
Did the Fisherman become his primary hook?
No, but it won't be the last hook he tosses out if he's draggin'.
I think my point is that now days in our almost totaly digita world we look for an instant solution, hence if a new hook comes on the market and sets a bit faster in a controled test it becomes the one we want, the manufacturer preys on this to sell at a very exagerated price, these two new hooks on the market are more than twice the cost of the standard, why?
It's not more costly to make,
It's not more costly to ship,
It's greed for the buck and preyin' on fear.
It's BS.
The test's are not perfect, nor do they cover all situations,
The Delta and CQR are the most common with the Bruce coming in a very close second.
Now as far as the un-written rule about getting the size one up for your boat, I believe the manufacturer has taken that into account already,
is bigger better? duh, but why go to extreme, our 37 is rated for a Delta 25 by thier tests, Fisheries selection table shows that a Delta 35 is what is rated for our 37, so if I buy a 45 Delta I've gone up two steps in the recommended size, where dose it end?
When your windless can't haul the hook back up?
And of course this has nothing to do with anything, but I just wanted to rant about the high price of the new hooks out there,,,,,,, Confused

whew, glad that's out of my system now,,,,,, Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hkschell



Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 96
Location: Bradenton, FL

PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't have the experience you're looking for with the new anchors but we wanted to upgrade from our 45# CQR for mostly sand & grass so we bought a used, almost new, 60# CQR and I can't imagine hooking much better than we do from W. FL to the ICW to Grenada. At $300 I think it was a bargain.

Harry
Sea Schell
_________________
Harry & Melinda Schell
Sea Schell, 1981 V-42 CC #41
hkschell@alumni.indiana.edu
KI4RHX
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Ralph Richardson



Joined: 27 Oct 2005
Posts: 61

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello All;
After having spent the whole summer in the San Juan's and Gulf Island's, I now have a better understanding of issues related to anchoring in deep water with BIG tidal ranges. We spent over 60 nights on the hook and I'm pretty sure we didn't ever drag. We used our primary anchor exclusively, a 45 lb. fake CQR, 150' 5/16 G4, 200' 5/8 3-strand (we have five anchors aboard from a 25 lb. CQR to a 70 lb. Luke). Had a couple of significant blows that kept me shivering on deck half the night, but no real problems... unless you count the other complete boneheads I sometimes had the misfortune to be anchored near.
In Friday Harbor I watched a large trawler drag anchor repeatedly one evening. He just would not let out enough rode and nearly took out a couple of rafted sailboats. Another time a small sailboat anchored very close to me after dark. I was awakened the next morning by his boat banging into my topsides. I had to fend him off with a boathook for an hour and a half until he finally woke up (uhh, sorry dude!).
Anyway, I think one of the greatest dangers out there are the uninformed, misguided, or just plain boneheaded boaters that involve you in their problems. Knowledge, preparation and awareness are what keeps us safe on the hook.
By the way; I'd originally planned to head south this fall and spend the winter in Mexico. Now I plan to head back north next summer and continue my exploration of the Gulf Islands in British Columbia. What a great cruising area.

Ralph Richardson
TERRA NOVA
T-37 ketch#406
Portland, Oregon
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hjkarten
Site Admin


Joined: 21 Jul 2005
Posts: 642
Location: Del Mar, California, USA

PostPosted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Ralph,
After a number of bad experiences with other boats on anchor in Friday Harbor, I have now given up and just go straight for a slip in that anchorage. The number of boneheads is amazing. One jerk insisted that he didn't have a depthsounder, didn't need such modern fancy stuff, (also no chart?) and that he had plenty of rode. As he bumped into us the next morning, after first insisting that we were dragging, he admitted that he had about 60 feet of total chain and rode. He was anchored in 50 feet of water with a 15 foot tide (total of 65 feet to bottom). The anchorage is crowded with people who anchor one night every few years, ignore the tidal shift, never heard of personal responsibility, and their first action is to blame someone else. Another guy had put out about 12:1 of cable from his large trawler, and it was nearly impossible to find anyplace to anchor outside of his "swing". Much as I like Friday Harbor, I now try to avoid it. Anchoring in Roche Harbor is a lot nicer, more good anchoring spots, and not as many jerks. Even better, go to Stuart Island, Sucia (if you have at least 300 feet of chain+rode to get away from the people hugging the shoreline), and lots of other neat anchorages in the Gulf Islands. Things are even nicer if you go north of Desolation Sound (often very crowded). Lots of small anchorages, often few people, generally good bottom. Try to find places where you can go at least 5:1. That isn't possible in Friday Harbor.
The variety of great places between Port Townsend and Juneau, Alaska is astounding. Avoid the crowds from Desolation and south. Learn to deal with the currents through the various narrows, and the whole of northern B.C./Alaska is open to you. But expect to be anchoring in 60-90 feet of water much of the time. I recently modified our anchoring gear, and plan to carry 300' of 5/16 HT, with 180' of 5/8" nylon. Our backup includes 600' of an additional 5/8" nylon. We do not like to drag. On our last trip to Alaska we only had 200' of chain. That is not enough. Needed at least another 150 - 200 feet of nylon rode.
regards,
Harvey
_________________
Harvey J. Karten
Tayana 37
Hull #84
Del Mar, CA 92014
EMail: hjkarten@ucsd.edu
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Tayana Owners Group Forum Index -> Tayana Talk - We Have Moved to Google Groups -- CLOSED 11/1/07 All times are GMT - 8 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Questions? Need Help? Send email to: webmaster@tognews.com


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group